I’ll be honest about the roman baptist church, will you?

Posted: October 25, 2010 in christian living
Tags: , , ,

This post has been updated to better meet the standard of charity required among true brethren.  I would hope others would extend charity to me if I go completely out of bounds on a topic.  Although I am unfamiliar with the man teaching in this video, I am very thankful for, and have been extremely edified by, other videos from I’ll be honest and brother Tim Conway.  With that being said, I resubmit this article in a spirit of Christian grace, knowing that all true saints are in need of such grace from one another as “Love covers over a multitude of sins”.  That is my heart in writing this, though I will be very direct because of the seriousness of this matter. I have sent a link to this article to the brethren at illbehonest along with posting it.

Here is the six minute video, please check it out in its entirety before reading any further.

 

If all that was meant by this video is that true Christians should find fellowship, without compromising on major issues, I would certainly agree with a sound amen.  If this was simply a passionate reminder of the God birthed love all true saints have for their brothers and sisters in Christ accompanied by an exhortation for us not to forsake such I would be clicking the ‘like’ button. If all what was being said is that it’s beneficial personally and as an expression of the church of Christ on earth for believers to meet regularly as outlined in the New Testament then I would not be writing this article.  However, this video goes far beyond this in threatening the many true saints of God who have fled local churches for truly Biblical reasons.

I would like to address three great errors in this video.  The first and most serious error is the roman catholic implication that there is no salvation apart from being a member of a local church.  The second error is the underlying theme that the typical local church (senior pastor, building, Sunday service) can even be considered New Testament fellowship.  The third error is in threatening God’s judgment on the true saints who have fled from an apostate or roman catholic modeled “bible believing” church.

This video not only falsely condemns true saints of God but it also characterizes them as misguided or sinful.  This is the same tactic that the roman catholic church used on the reformers.  Giving those who sit in the pews the impression that those who have fled their religious institutions are in danger of hell (and not worth listening to) inoculates them from the prophetic voice that often comes out of the wilderness.   This is the very same thing that Rome has been doing for centuries.  In direct contrast to the misguided message in this video, the cry of God to His saints is to come out from among the apostate churches.  Even of the roman catholic modeled “bible believing” churches He says I hate their nicolatian practices and affirms His saints who do likewise.

I would hope the brethren at illbehonest would take another look at the message of this video compared to the pure word of God (even as presented in this response) and really reconsider their endorsement of this teaching that has a serious appearance of falsehood and evil regardless of what the original intent was. I have arranged my reply with comments in the same order as they appear in the video and stried to quote to the letter exactly what was spoken (in bold font), though that should not be an issue since you can re-watch the video if you want to hear it again first hand.

The Church always takes shape in the local body of believers who are in union and fellowship with one another

I will answer this false statement from a comment already posted by another brother on the YouTube video.  I will also add that sitting in a pew to listen to one man teach doesn’t constitute being in union and fellowship – even with a monthly potluck thrown in the mix.

While there is great importance in the local church, this video starts out with a false presumption of the definition of church, that being that the “church” in Scripture is only the gathering of believers together in a local assembly. The “church” may include that, but it is first of all those who have been born again. It consists not of brick and mortar, but of living stones, every individual believer 1 Corinthians 15:9, “For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.” Paul didn’t persecute the local gatherings per se, but he certainly did persecute individual believers, such as Steven, who are the church. The church is literally the PEOPLE of God. Each one. Most of the local churches in America are apostate (or borderline apostate). Many true believers belong to none of them, yet these believers are still the church.

There is no such things as a lone ranger, I call it being a lone ranger, me being saved out here apart from my fellowship and my participation in the local body

This gets right to the heart of the matter.  I call this the spirit of the roman baptist church.  I have to assume the speaker does not really mean what he just implied, that there is no salvation apart from being a member of a local church.  If anyone really teaches and believes this I would treat them as I would a roman catholic, as being an apostate who is outside of Christ’s true Church and is himself in need of salvation.  Speaking of lone rangers, it is ironic that even in “bible believing” churches the senior pastor fills an extra-biblical man made position that makes him a lone ranger.   Ephesians 4:11-15

I can’t know that I’m a real Christian unless I’m in the local church, you can’t know, you can’t have any assurance that you are a real Christian by reading books and by listening to sermons and being out here isolated and say “well its wonderful oh we love God” (said in a semi sarcastic tone)

I again have to assume the speaker does not really believe what he is saying.  Our assurance that we are truly Christians comes from the Holy Spirit within us, and is evidenced by Holy fruit in our lives.  The apostle Paul spent years in the wilderness, the Ethiopian eunuch was sent on his way alone after being baptized.  They may only be a couple of examples but they are undeniable none the less.  In the day that we live in I know many true brethren that love God and are very thankful to have escaped from apostate or nicolatian churches.  In fact, most of the genuine brethren that I know have spent much time outside of an established local church (though I have never heard of a true believer that didn’t long for fellowship with other brethren).   The Lord used messages heard over the internet and books from Godly men of the past to help mold many of these saints.  I am less worried about such saints, even if they are currently in the wilderness for a long season, then I am for the speaker in this video and illbehonest for posting it.  Romans 5:1-2

If we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ, God’s son, cleanses us from all sin

This verse is actually saying the exact opposite of what this video would have us believe.  God’s plain word says that if we walk in the light (follow after Christ’s effectual calling on our life) then we have fellowship with one another through the head of the Church – Christ Jesus Himself.  It doesn’t say that if we attend protestant mass (Sunday service) every week and call it fellowship then we are walking in the light.   Ironically the majority of those who sit in local fellowships are not walking in the light.  They are neither connected to Christ the head, or to His body.  They are very well connected to other unconverted pew warmers through religious structure though. *

*Of course there are many true saints in there with pure hearts as well. I’m fairly sure many of them would put to shame my Christian walk in different areas.  This blog post is in no way meant as an attack on true saints who take part in bad traditions out of a pure heart (though I would challenge them on such traditions).

How can we say we love God and not be in union and in fellowship and in love with brothers and sisters in Christ in a local body

It is definitely biblical to say that if someone is truly saved they will love to fellowship with other true brethren.  We know we have passed from death to life when we love the brethren!  As I’ve already stated though, the sad fact is that possibly 90% of the established local (institutional) churches are apostate and of the 10% remaining most are modeled after roman catholicism and are run by a nicolatian spirit.  Even at “bible believing” churches the “fellowship” is mostly compromised of sitting in a pew and staring at the back of somebody else’s head for an hour or two while listening to the one fold ministry talk week after week.  Even meeting with another brother once a week for Bible study over coffee (or over the internet even) is closer to true fellowship then what the many of these churches offer.  Though these examples fall well short of having a true New Testament local church I believe it is probably better to have small pieces in place and built on the right foundation of true relationships, then to have a confused religious system that needs to be torn down or completely rebuilt from the foundation.

To quote something a good brother of mine recently wrote on this very subject:

This whole discussion comes down to defining what’s biblical fellowship and how the saints should meet. For many who have left institutional, denominational churches people will say to them “you have no fellowship”. The reality is, they (the institutional church members) most often do not have fellowship either. They are just deluded or ignorant of the fact that coming together for 1.5hrs on Sunday morning to sing a few songs, take up an offering, listen to a few announcements, and hear a man preach for 30 minutes..does not constitute fellowship. Many churches actually call this time their “service” or “program” and that is exactly what it is. It’s certainly not fellowship. While it is of utmost importance, and should be every believers heart desire to fellowship with other saints, we should not confuse going to a service as biblical fellowship.

This is God’s will for all of His children that they be in a local church submitting themselves to a pastor, submitting themselves for accountability, to be where you can be admonished, and exhorted and to hear the teaching of the word of God WEVE GOT TO HAVE THAT TO BE SAVED and if we forsake that

This sounds exactly like roman catholicism and I can’t believe the speaker said such a thing.  It is no wonder that true saints are running for their lives from such “bible believing” churches.  I would really hope that illbehonest would consider how dangerous and unbiblical these statements regarding the very nature of justification by faith and take this video down.   Galatians 1:6-10

there’s no way in the world you sit alone by yourself and take the Lords supper

There’s also no way in the world you can call passing a plate of wafers around while staring at the back of someone’s head at Sunday service the Lords supper.  On the other hand, you can sit at home with your wife, or in your weekly Bible study with another brother and truly enjoy a meal along with unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine together.  Again, this falls far short of a NT church but a small slice of kingdom relaity free of roman catholic leaven is the best many can find today.

It’s a supper and it’s for the family

When my family eats supper we usually do not line up in pews and have someone stand up on the table to read a dinner time message to us while we eat a wafer with a shot of grape juice. This falls so far short of sharing our lives as brethren that it is ridiculous to hold it up as an example to follow!  God does not generally intend for his people to be lone rangers, but he certainly doesn’t intend for them to follow slightly reformed roman catholic traditions that fall so short either!  What’s worse is when those who hold to such practices start lecturing on it.  As I said earlier, all it does is further alienate the true saints who are out of fellowship because they can see right through the unbiblical statements and hypocrisy of it all.  If the point of this video is to win such brethren’s hearts it certainly has failed in every way.  It may falsely scare some into church attendance, but it certainly won’t bear good fruit since it’s root is bad.

I’ll say again there are a lot of misguided, misdirected, souls that don’t want to have any part to do with the local church they are greatly in error

I will say in return that this speaker and those who support this video are misguided and in great error.  Further, if they themselves do not have true New Testament fellowship (as opposed to attending the typical Sunday service week after week) they are acting as hypocritical Pharisees here.  This is exactly what the Pharisees did, they judged falsely based on their carnal traditions.   Luke12:1   Matthew 7:3-5  Matthew 16:6

I would not go so far to say that all of them are completely lost but I’m saying this, they are going to be very stunted and have an accounting

I am thankful for this saving statement, that indicates the speaker maybe doesn’t really believe everything else he just said.  In fact I actually agree with this comment.  God ordained for us to be built up by other brethren with their various giftings.  Yet true believers in institutional churches are often the ones severely stunted by their roman catholic church structure founded on a one fold ministry.  The very fact that these saints can read the word of God and not discern that their fellowship looks nothing like what they just read proves this well.  I would also like to point out that besides the minority of true saints out in the pews the vast majority of people in the local churches are completely lost.  That goes double for those in the Bible belt.  I’ll also add that those leaders who keep God’s people bound in roman catholic traditions are going to have FAR more of an accounting than some saint who is out of fellowship.   Ephesians 4:11-15     2 Corinthians 6:14-18

If they’re not willing to be accountable here they’re going to have to give an account to “him” one day and I sure wouldn’t want to be standing before the Lord Jesus Christ when he says why on earth you wouldn’t be a part of my church

There are many true saints that are not involved in the local church because of the reasons I have mentioned. Sometimes all they have is fellowship over the internet, or even just listening to messages.  Sadly that is all some have for now though they long for more!  While over the internet may not be very close true to New Testament fellowship neither is the Sunday service. Again, the Lord does not condemn His people for fleeing those churches as this video falsely does, however, He does hate the practice of the nicolatians and warns His people to come out from apostate churches.  Revelation 2:6    Revelation 2:15-16    Revelation 18:4-5

I have a friend who one time wrote a tract go to church or go to hell – it was very enlightening little bit of literature

What does this statement accomplish?  To scare a brother or sister out there who just left a bad church into attending protestant mass on Sunday with their  check book in hand so you can read the Holy Scriptures to them, the common and ignorant laity, and accept their tithes while offering prayers to God for them that they might be saved?  Again, if I wasn’t in a local fellowship (which I am and to which I am accountable), there is zero chance I would go near one of these places after hearing this video.

This may be harsh but it reflects the heart of this video and of the roman baptist church.  I am not just picking on baptists here either; most protestant churches seem to be maturing into the harlot daughters of rome.  In this day and age it is often better to be sitting outside of fellowship then to be compromised with apostasy or to be conquered over by the nicolatian leadership of the “bible believing” churches  (of course to start building true new testament fellowship with the brethren is better yet).  Matthew 23:13

why would the Lord have you in a place where there would not be a church

I would ask the speaker ot read Acts 8:27,28 &39 then ask the question again.  In return I could ask why the Lord would allow His sheep to sit in a roman baptist institution week after week and call it “church”?  While we are exhorted not to forsake gathering together (the average Sunday service is usually no true gathering at all) we are also exhorted to “come out from among them” and to “flee from Babylon”.  I am in no way saying that all professing believers who attend baptist or institutional churches are in Babylon or are lost.  I would only exhort those true believers to seek God earnestly over the empty traditions that were handed down to them and that they have followed.  Roman catholic traditions keep God’s children in bondage and do not lead to a mature body under the headship of Christ.  I know there are even true elders / pastors that stay in that system and try to genuinely glorify God in it.  I am thankful for them and love them in Christ, as many have been used to bless and teach me much in the past.  I am not pronouncing condemnation on them in any way, just on those who love and support the practice of the nicolatians.  These practices are the very reason many true saints are out of the local church in the west.

I will part with another comment left by a sister on this YouTube video.

I don’t attend the institutional church, I tried, but I refuse to sit in a church week after week where false teaching abounds. I submit to my husband, my husband submits to Christ. If I made a pastor my covering, I would be dishonoring my head (my husband). If my husband were to make his covering a pastor, then he is dishonoring Christ.  I live in a community of Sunday Christians, Monday sinners. I live in the part of the South that Paul Washer preaches about. I’m better off worshipping at home

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Comments
  1. thereformedtraveler says:

    Yes, illbehonest folks, I for one would like to hear a response to this post. Thanks fleebabylon -spot on- for alerting everyone (to yet another video of this kind)…put out by illbehonest.

    • fleebabylon says:

      Is there another one by illbehonest like this?

      • thereformedtraveler says:

        Yes, it was on tithing. Paul Washer and Charles Leiter on Tithe. For anyone looking this up, good to read comments to see what’s up with this particular snippet of video. But with that said, interesting.

  2. Natasa says:

    Did you get any response from them?

    • fleebabylon says:

      Not yet, but it has only been a day. I could not find an email address for them either so I had to submitt it by the form on their website and I sent a youtube message to them also.

  3. ian vincent says:

    I’m speechless!

    I agree with you, brother.

    Where to begin with this mess? Ask the man to provide a scripture that says that it’s the “church” that saves and not the Blood of Christ?

    That, what he describes as “church” is not even remotely similar to what is described in the NT?

    What the man is describing as the “local church” is in fact a cult.

    • Robert William Robinson Jr says:

      IF YOU DONT BELONG TO THE CHURCH YOU WILL BURN IN HELL.

      • fleebabylon says:

        Amen! The Church is everyone who has savingly believed in Christ and been washed by His blood. Turn from your dead religous works to Christ today and flee the wrath to come. Otherwise you will burn in hell as you stated.

  4. Sean Scott says:

    Hey brother…did you post a link for this blog post on the comment section of the youtube video? I didn’t see it. If not, you should post it.

    • fleebabylon says:

      I dont think I did, but ill check. I did send it through a private message on youTube and also through their website form. Another brother just sent me a private email address to someone at illbehonest so i will send it there too.

  5. Robert William Robinson Jr says:

    YOU KNOW NOTHING!!! THE CHURCH IS THE PILLAR AND GROUND OF THE TRUTH. THE CHURCH WAS HERE IN THE FIRST CENTURY AND WILL BE HERE TILL THE END OF TIME. IF YOU ARE NOT A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH YOU WILL BURN IN HELL.

    • fleebabylon says:

      Robert-
      You are right in saying that I know nothing in light of eternity and the unsearchable riches that are in Christ Jesus! You are also right in your declaration that whoever is not in the church will go to hell. Sadly you are deathly wrong in your implication that the “church” is the whorish religous institution that you have implied. I am sure that such a belief is gratifying to your wicked religous flesh though. Repent and believe the Gospel.

      For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. ~1Co 13:12

      To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. ~Hebrews 12:23-24

      • John A. says:

        In a sense, you’re both right. In a normative sene the NT presupposes we’re part of a Congregation. In the OT, you HAD to be part of the Temple system to be a Jew.

        But repeatedly throughout the OT we’re given examples of saints trying to live in times of apostasy. There were times when they couldn’t go to the temple. There were times when the Sons of the Prophets were living like a little Christian community in exile.

        Ideally we should not be alone, but we live in spiritually dark times…akin to the Middle Ages. I open up my newspaper find 200 churches listed in a 1.5hr radius and can’t find one that’s seriously teaching Biblical or historic Christianity. We go to one, but probably shouldn’t. We grit our teeth through about 95% of it and hope there’s a few minutes of meat in the sermon. I feel bad for the people, but I sometimes wonder if we’re wrong to go there. We’re sort of checking a box I’m sorry to say.

        That said, to many who part forward the ‘Go to Church’ argument…do so not in the spirit of the NT, but as guardians of Institutional Power. Often the real thrust is for a denomination or a tradition. If you don’t dot your “i’s” and cross your “t’s” the way they do…by imposing extra-biblical creedal statements….they don’t want you there anyway.

        There is a spirit of faction at work in most Churches. Even though I think the NT plainly teaches we ought to be part of a Church-body (that doesn’t mean denominational status or membership, or some other made up thing)….the reality is there are large swathes of the United States and certainly the world where it justn’t isn’t an option.

        Move they say. Well, if you can. Not everyone has the ability to do so. I’ve known lone rangers who are in a very bad way…and I’ve known others who are flourishing as pilgrims and strangers.

        Sometimes I think, for a season….it might be warranted to pull back and spend some time in serious study and meditation (I mean that in the Biblical sense) and try and determine the best course.

        Christ alone saves….but God uses Means and one of the Means in the Church. But Means are not always an end.

  6. ian vincent says:

    RWRJr,

    All that are Christ’s belong to His Church.

    Christ alone saves, not the Church.

    The church that you refer to, which you think has saved you, does it have anything in common with the Church in Ephesus, in Corinth, in Thessanolonika, Phillipi, in Rome etc.. ?? That is, do all have all things in common and break bread daily from house to house, with plural elders and no single pastor?

    If the original Apostles visited your church would they praise or rebuke you?

  7. ketch22 says:

    [KETCH – THIS COMMENT WAS WAY TO LONG FOR ME TO POST. WHY NOT MAKE A BLOG POST ON YOUR BLOG ABOUT IT AND ADD A LINK IN YOUR COMMENT HERE INSTEAD? – THANKS JIM]

    I disagree with you completely. I watched the video x 2 and could not see where the speaker made the serious error of the roman catholic implication that there is no salvation apart from being a member of a local church. He simply stated that it was difficult to be asured of your salvation apart from a local assembly.

    This is copied, but correct.

    Are you saying, then, that I am to believe that the truly New Testament church should carry out every practice recorded in the New Testament…

  8. fleebabylon says:

    For accountability let me add that I did not end up pursuing any further contact by email with illbehonest. I did post on the youtube video comments, I sent them a private message on youtube, and I contacted them through their website form.

  9. Mark says:

    I am so glad I found this separate site on this one video. I have commented on the you tube about this video and it’s un-biblical teaching.

    I am so blessed by the fact that so many others are beginning to have their eyes opened to truth, and also having the eye to see error.

  10. fleebabylon says:

    Read this quote on sermonindex the other day (the writer has said he is using church as the visible church institution)

    “A man may be saved without the Church, but he cannot be saved without Christ. A man may be in the Church and not be saved; but he cannot be in Christ without salvation. Sinners sometimes become members of the Church [TODAY THEY ARE THE GREAT MAJORITY IN THE VISIBLE CHURCH AND LEADERSHIP-JIM]; but only saints are members of Christ. A person may live in the Church for years, with the old heart of carnality and selfishness; but “if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature”.

    The requirements of the Church are often wrong and ruinous; but the claims of Christ are always reasonable and right. The Church may become a sink of pollution; but Christ is ever the perfection of purity. The Church may be rent with divisions; but Jesus Christ is not divided. The Church may become terribly entangled in mysticism and error; but Christ is always the embodiment of light and truth. The Church may change her name and her nature; but Christ is “the same yesterday, today, and forever”. The Church may be a crutch to walk with, but she is a poor Christ to trust in for salvation and eternal life. “

    • ccsaxton says:

      The church is the body of Christ – They love Christ, one another and they have love, joy and peace in their fellowship – because they know that Christ has redeemed them and they have no confidence in the flesh but only through faith in Christ Jesus do they have confidence.

      Where two or more are gathered in my name then there I am in the midst of them.

      The words of Christ…If Christ is in the midst of them then who can say that they are not a church (The gathering of God)? Only someone caught up in a false religion would speak against those words.

      Where there is correct teaching from the bible then we should submit to it. I think it better that believers should understand that they can meet together and worship God and love one another like Christ taught. Just make sure you are fellowshipping with other believers to build one another up in Christ…don’t feel railroaded to go to a specific church because some says you have to be part of “a church”. The church worships in Spirit and truth and it is not built with the hands of men but by Christ.

      I for one am sick and tired of denominationalism and all its apostasy and false teaching.

  11. ccsaxton says:

    If God put me where I am then does He not want me to shine just where He put me? We shouldn’t have to feel compelled to travel miles and miles to a church building in order to be the living Church of Christ Jesus – He lives in us and we should be shining lights in the place where we are. We have complete freedom to fellowship “with believers” anywhere we want…If they believe that Jesus Christ has died for their sins and is risen from death – justifying them and assuring them of eternal life then we can worship with them.

    We separate where we see apostasy. If someone feels compelled to worship God as a reformed baptist then God bless them its completely up to them, if they want to worship and sing in a local church then God bless them. If others want to meet in a house and worship the Lord then God bless them. Because “Where two or more are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them” – If anyone feels that he or she can say to me that I am not a christian because I don’t go to a “church service” once a week then that is their opinion and I choose to completely ignore you. I am a Christian because

    “Christ died for my sins was buried and on the third day he rose from the grace justifying me and giving me eternal life not based on what I have done for God but based on my faith that Christ died for me” – That is where my faith is and everyone else who wants to tell me that I am not a Christian then I “ignore you” because my salvation is outside anything that I can do – I am saved by Christ, bought by Christ and He alone justifies me – I believe God because He gave me the “free gift” of eternal life through His Son “Christ Jesus” – Christ saved me. Amen and Amen

  12. Mickey Merrie says:

    Love you Bro! Good to see this post revisited on other blogs as well. Lord willing we will “one another” face to face soon! Till then we will “one another” as Paul did via the letters back in his day!

  13. There’s a lot of dangerous teaching in one short 6-minute video.

    Something this blatant–I’d seriously have to reconsider their other products after seeing this.

    This is end times “submit to the whore Church” nonsense that’s been pushed by the corporate Church. This is the discredited “Shepherding Movement” reborn for a newer, more apostate audience.

    Good catch.

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