Who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth?

Posted: December 21, 2010 in christian living, ecclesia, harlot church
Tags: , , ,

Who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth?

By ian vincent

You did run well; who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth? This persuasion comes not of him that calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Galatians 5:7-9

A person comes amongst the brethren who becomes a hindrance, causing them not to obey the truth. When a person has such an influence: that is, the effect of their teaching is to cause believers, who were previously running well, to not obey the truth, such a person is bad leaven/yeast. Their influence will spread very wide unless they are stopped. This is one reason that God ordained a plural eldership for each Church, so that the brothers together can be under-shepherds of the Good Shepherd, and deal with such people. And they will have to deal with men who try to become “the pastor” over the assembly. The elders will recognize that such a man is bad leaven, for he prides himself that he is superior to the other elders. Bad leaven causes the brethren to not obey the truth. Good leaven causes the brethren to obey the truth. If Christians today are not obeying the truth, it is bcos they have been influenced by such people, as Paul warns about.

Taken from http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/2010/12/21/who-did-hinder-you-that-you-should-not-obey-the-truth/#comments

  1. ketch22 says:

    The Argument Against Pastors
    It may be surprising to some, but many Christians dispute the office of pastor itself. In Pagan Christianity?, authors Frank Viola and George Barna advocate strongly for the “organic” model, arguing that most of today’s church traditions (including paid clergy, ordered services, etc.) have pagan origins. In an “organic” church, they write approvingly, “everyone is free to function, share, participate, and minister spiritually during gatherings, so the creativity expressed in them is endless” (Viola, Frank and Barna, George. Pagan Christianity? Exploring the Roots of our Church Practices. Tyndale, 2008).

    While Viola and Barna (and others in the organic church movement) convincingly argue that some church traditions stem from pagan cultures or other religions, they overreach in some of their conclusions. It’s true that centuries of practice and church politics, as well as diverse cultural influences, have added aspects to church life that are not found in Scripture, but some of their claims and proposed conclusions go beyond the evidence.

    God’s Design for Church Leadership
    While the church is universal in scope, it was intended to be locally organized. And pastors are at the center of that local organization, being tasked with pastoral “oversight” and ultimately being held responsible to the Chief Shepherd (I Peter 5).

    Paul also gives instructions on how local assemblies should compensate elders in I Timothy 5:17-18. How organic church advocates like Barna and Viola can read that passage and still maintain that having and paying clergy is “Pagan” (and not Christian) is often viewed as perplexing, to say the least.

    The biblical principle is clear: Pastors, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and within the parameters of their biblical qualifications (I Timothy 3:1-7; I Peter 5:1-4), are to lead and take care of their respective local congregations. And those local churches in turn are to follow and take care of their pastors (Hebrews 13:17; I Timothy 5:17-18).

    Read more at Suite101: The Biblical Role of a Pastor: What Does the Bible Say About Elders or Pastors? http://www.suite101.com/content/the-biblical-role-of-a-pastor-a157453#ixzz18nTyXd4i

    • fleebabylon says:


      I do not endores viola or barna – in fact viola is a good buddy of emergent universalist brian mclaren so I would say avoid him like the plauge. That being said, I was reading the two references you have given (I Timothy 3:1-7; I Peter 5:1-4) and they both speak against the modern clergy / laity and sr pastor system… while promoting a true eldership in the local Churches.


  2. Sean Scott says:

    Hi Ketch,

    I’m not sure anyone is arguing against the gift or office of a pastor.

    IN Christ,


    • ketch22 says:

      “And they will have to deal with men who try to become “the pastor” over the assembly. The elders will recognize that such a man is bad leaven, for he prides himself that he is superior to the other elders. Bad leaven causes the brethren to not obey the truth.”

      I am sure they are arguing against it.

      • Sean Scott says:

        Hi Ketch,

        I believe the discussion is about the role and function of a pastor and the scope of pastoral authority and not whether it is an office/gift from God.


      • ketch22 says:

        I do realize that and I disagree with your opinion on pastoral authority. But since I have never personally witnessed a pastor exerting his authority, I can’t argue much on this point… only that the pastors I have had have always seemed to humble themselves in this position.

  3. ian vincent says:

    RE: “And they will have to deal with men who try to become “the pastor” over the assembly. The elders will recognize that such a man is bad leaven, for he prides himself that he is superior to the other elders.”
    The scenario here is that there is a team of elders working together, and one of these elders feels the “calling” to be “the pastor” over these elders.

    “pastors and teachers” (Eph 4) refers to the office of elder/bishop (plural) in the local assembly. Never in the NT is it cited as the office of one man, always plural.


    Jim, you’re right about Viola. He had some good things to say about the church, but he has gone the way of everyone else who tries to make money out of the religion industry. Recently i visited his site and i felt sick, he was promoting himself so much.

    Christians in America don’t realize that they are like “frogs in the pot”, the water is getting hotter and they get lulled into complacency, then finally its too hot to escape the pot.
    They don’t realize that the things they count as normal concerning the church, the Apostles would have been sickened by.

  4. John A. says:

    The modern church structure is in need of critique. The Emergent theology is all built on false foundations. That said, though I would never recommend them…they occasionally get something right, even if it’s for the wrong reason.

    As the old saying goes….Even a blind squirrel gets an acorn every once in awhile.

    I sure don’t agree about pastors humbling themselves. Quite the opposite has been my experience, but my experiences have been in PCA and OPC circles.

    The key to the Church running correctly and power being properly checked is to follow the plurality of elders set out in the NT. Never do we find an instance of an individual pastor.

    Ignatius of Antioch just a few years after the death of John the Apostle is vigorously pushing for it. It obviously was not the norm.

    Pragmatism brought it about. The need to set up a chain of succession for the claims of orthodoxy contra the gnostics and others led the emphasis being placed on ‘one’ congregational leader, and then area leader(Bishop), regional leader(Metropolitan/archbishop), and finally the Pope claiming the authority of Peter as the Bishop of Rome.

    I will go to a church following the ‘pastor’ model though I don’t believe it to be correct. The problem is the whole structure and vision of the Church needs to be re-thought. Sadly, only the Emergent heretics seem to be doing that at the moment. They’re making the Willow-Creek Seekers look old fashioned.

    My essay on Romanticism deals with some of this. It’s a recurring pattern throughout history.

    But in terms of ecclessiastical polity, there is no ‘pastor’ in the NT. 1 Tim 5.17 doesn’t support it, in fact I think if you look at the wording, it supports plurality. There may be different practical functions and emphases within the plurality, but it does not create a separate office as the OPC teaches. The official title for their pastors is….Teaching Elder, that would be contrasted with Ruling Elder. They appeal to that verse for support.

    I think it’s Elder….some do more (labouring) teaching, some do more ruling….counseling (Biblical, not psych), visiting, etc….

    Happy Solstice!

    • ketch22 says:

      Well I guess I am ok because we have a senior pastor, junior pastor, missions pastor, youth pastor, and about 4 more… plurality.

  5. ketch22 says:

    Merry Christmas to my brothers in Christ.

  6. John A. says:

    Where can I find the qualifications for Sr. Pastor, Jr. Pastor, missions pastor, youth pastor in the Bible? Can’t seem to find them?

    I assume then you would have no problem with Arch-deacons, Priors, Sub-deacons, Abbots, Archbishops, crucifers, etc…?

    These issues are all related. Sufficiency of Scripture. Without it we get…tradition being placed on par with Scripture and the next thing you know we have a man-made church with man-made structures, and man-made holidays. The Church thinks its transforming culture, instead it is accomodating it and being transformed.

    • ketch22 says:

      Its all under pastor… times change and we adapt with sub-titles, but it all comes down to pastor. We also don’t find “Clay Neighborhood” or “Simple Church”, but these are the names applied to the house churches in my neighborhood. If you truly think that God is all up in arms about these titles, then you need to read up… because their is freedom to be found, my friend. And tradition is never on par with Scripture, but it isn’t bad either.

    • ketch22 says:

      There is also no mention of the name, “Tyler”, but a true Christian brother of mine has that name. Now I am sure it is not on par with what the Scriptures had people named as, but I am sure he will be OK at the foot of Jesus.

      • fleebabylon says:

        ‘There is also no mention of the name, “Tyler”, but a true Christian brother of mine has that name’

        kETCH – that is a really bad argument 😦

      • ketch22 says:

        Of course it is… I was using it to show how absurd it is to think that everything the apostles did is what we should do. Different cultures, different ways. We need to acknowledge the spirit of how they did things and adapt them to our time and culture.

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