Lets get back to real genuine conversions – Ravenhill

Posted: May 30, 2012 in christian living

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  1. Al Nelson says:

    Interesting video. I have an opinion that if the gifts are to be bestowed. They will be bestowed in God’s way and His time. All we need to worry about is walking according to the commandments of Christ from preaching the Gospel to how we assemble ourselves together Biblically. I think that sums up just what Mr. Ravenhill was saying.

  2. ian vincent says:

    Amen , Al.

    I’m always praying for God to move in the miraculous to shake people up, like here:

    Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not worked by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
    Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
    .
    .
    .
    These were not “attesting” miracles (as the cessationists say) these were miracles to “make the Gentiles obedient”.

    If only the power of God could shake Gentiles into believing, then, then it will be the same today.

    If only signs and wonders would do it then, then only signs and wonders will do it today, to win the lost.

    (Im sounding like Benny Hinn, i know, but it’s Bible)

    So there’s a balance that’s needed.

    Not to place the miraculous above all, or above the preaching of the Truth,, but not to ignore the role of the miraculous in the way that God reaches people in the darkness. He still reaches people where they are at with His power to heal and deliver.

    Al hit the nail on the head, that Jesus must have the preeminence, and then He will do wonders in His time and in the way He sees fit. It won’t be a show.

    Believers don’t need signs and wonders. They shouldn’t be seeking them.

    But they should ask God to use them to heal the sick and cast our devils, in order to reach the lost with the Gospel.

    • Sean Scott says:

      Amen. That’s a good point Ian.

      And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
      (Act 4:29-30)

  3. ian vincent says:

    “……Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God;….”
    .
    .
    We can be sure it was NOTHING like the stuff we see with Benny Hinn and the like. Nothing manufactured, nothing faked, probably no falling down.

    No parading the healed before the crowd to get glory from men.

    Real demons crying out and departing from people…..

    This is where it becomes difficult to discuss, cos when “signs and wonders” is mentioned these days, usually people think of what they’ve seen on TV

    Cessationism sprung up as a back lash to the fake.

    • fleebabylon says:

      Just to be clear, I dont think ravenhill was a cessationist. He is talking about the modern pentecostal movement, full of carnality but still preaching signs and wonders. That is what I got from the interview (listening to more than just the clip). With that I agree! Of course there is no reason we cant have both signs and holiness..

      (edit)

  4. Leonard seemed to summarize his thoughts with his last words;
    “We need to go forth with a new birth message” That message was alluded to with several previous statements that all had to do with Christians embracing the cross.

    The fact is as he stated, “We don’t want to die.” (referring to most professing Christians) and here’s one of my own, “There is no such thing as a Christian who is unwilling to die”

    Just as one must trust in the death of Another to initiate one’s relationship with God, so must one die himself in order to be fruitful in one’s service in Christ.

    I don’t care one whit about so-called or real supernatural signs (which are not necessary, sorry Ian) but ten of thousands of examples could be given). But one thing is absolutely necessary- death is necessary to be fruitful and powerful in Christ’s service. The Bible does not say that supernatural signs are necessary (despite them confirming witnesses at times) but it does say often that dying is both necessary and mandatory (to be a Christian and to be effectual)

    99% of “Christian service does not stem from a crucified life and that is why it is ineffectual. Show me a man who dies daily, and I’ll show you a man who impacts everyone he meets for good and to the glory of God.

  5. ian vincent says:

    Do you want what Paul wanted?

    “I dare not judge how effectively He has used others, but I know this: He has used me to win the Gentiles to God. I have won them by my message and by the good way I have lived before them, and by the miracles done through me as signs from God – all by the Holy Spirit’s power. In this way I have preached the full Gospel of Christ all the way from Jerusalem clear over into Illyricum.” Romans 15:18-19 (TLB)

    Here, Paul does not say the purpose of miracles was to prove or validate that he was an Apostle, but rather that God used miracles, in conjunction with the Gospel message, to win the Gentiles to Christ.

    It would be difficult to try and prove that God no longer chooses to use miraculous power, in His Gospel arsenal, to awaken people to Christ, and to deliver the oppressed.

    I take it from this, that, at the very least, we should fast, pray and beseech Him to extend His mighty hand to heal and deliver as we preach the Cross of Christ, in the same pattern and example left us by Paul.

    • I don’t think I have ever met anyone who truly wanted what Paul wanted- at least not those who understood what that would entail, ie; severe sufferings etc. Do not apostolic sufferings accompany apostolic power? I think we can be fairly confident that such would likely be the case, and is the case for one called as such.

      I do not dispute that God can and does continue to use miraculous power in our lives and for a witness at times. I just believe like most good things that this can become a snare and once again get individual believers sidetracked from a devotion to Jesus Himself and onto lesser things.

      As an example, there is a specific prayer fellowship where I live that supposedly uses the miraculous to convince others of the gospel. Those involved regularly lay hands upon other people, many who are not saved in order to “discover” what is blocking them from being physically healed (what sins, as they all have physical ailments) and are promising people God will heal them if they repent. The whole scenario looks like and resembles “the divining of spirits” more than anything else. I was invited once and despite the usual “good things” was troubled so much that I never went back. None of the 50-60 people involved seemed the least bit concerned about the 8-10 “red flags” that stood out clearly to me.

      Yes, we ought to beseech our Lord to use any and every means through us that are scripturally founded and acceptable to Him. I certainly agree with the summation of your comments above as well.

  6. Mickey Merrie says:

    We forget that there is a clarity from scripture regarding “signs and wonders” and also a sign and wonder already given!

    Matthew 12:38
    Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Matthew 16:4
    A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

    Luke 11:4
    A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

    Now the greater context of these are Matthew chapters 12 through 18, along with Luke 11.

    We are then also warned about a great falling away which happens as a result of lying signs and wonders.

    2 Thessalonians 2:9 specifically, but here is the context .

    1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    So, are we then cessationists? NO! for, Mark 16 says these things shall follow them that believe…

    Our call is to preach the gospel. The Holy Spirit will convict men unto repentance and as God sees fit He will confirm His Work in men by these things which follow.

    Unfortunately most look for these things to lead their ministry as if they have power and are expecting the wicked to be convinced thus. In reality this is how Satan and his ministers will seek to deceive the elect if it were possible…One thing is for certain, a great falling away results from those foolish virgins who chase after “snake oil salesmen” who appear to be anointed ones.

    We are to stand on the One Sign and Wonder, Christ Jesus and His finished Work at Calvary. This too was Christ’s message to men even as Messianic miracle after Messianic miracle accompanied Him! Yet these wicked and perverse religious leaders, seeing Christ Jesus prove, both by the Word of God (Torah) and by their foolish traditions (Talmud) that He was Messiah. Yet they could not see Him as such due to their delusions of clerical hierarchy. Saul himself when confronted with the Truth had to count all his religious past as dung when Christ Jesus revealed Himself to him.

    Without the gift of Jesus Christ, THE sign and wonder, all other “signs and wonders” are powerless. What we need is disillusion by the Work of Jesus, not illusions by the working of the prince of this world.

    That is what Leonard Ravenhill also understood!

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