Even outside the corrupt Church System there are many cults

Posted: January 3, 2014 in christian living, ecclesia, Jesus

Watch out for cults. Even outside the corrupt Church System there are many cults. Pray for discernment, that you will be able to spiritually see and know the truth about what someone does or says or promotes. One cult says that we must become devoted to the Old Testament Law and rituals and we must call God by Hebrew names, or “sacred names”, observing special days, rituals and such. This is not true. He is your Father, you can call Him your Father. You can call Him Jesus. He leads you by His Spirit, you need not a list of religious rules and rituals. He will lead you from within you by His Spirit and power. Let no one put you under bondage to religion. Another cult is what is called “shepherding”, this is when the leaders tell you they require a leader (shepherd or “father”) over you to rule your life, to whom you are accountable in everything. This is a multi-level hierarchy system of external control. They will control your life! With this, you must submit to and obey your leader over you. It’s all about submitting to the leader. Again, this system is a cult; you need no external control system of men over you, Christ Jesus is your Shepherd and head, your shepherd, priest and leader. We do not we submit our will to a man. These authoritarian systems and men seek to make themselves substitutes for Jesus Christ. Accept no substitute for Christ. Jesus Christ alone shall rule in your heart and guide you by His Spirit.

From http://witnessingencouragement.wordpress.com/2014/01/01/dear-new-believer/

  1. James Lee says:

    I am not partial to the ideal that sabbath/feast keeping is inherent to be found in obedience to the commands of Christ, but I do find it necessary to do as he did. If we are to emulate Christ, does it not do us well to observe feasts like he did? Feasts are not salvific, but Christ honored certain ones no?

    • fleebabylon says:

      “does it not do us well to observe feasts like he did? Feasts are not salvific, but Christ honored certain ones no?”

      Like what, the passover, that was a shadow and for me to hold it now would be the same as slaughtering a lamb for atonement of sin – that is, it would be a backwards move that misses the reality of dying with Christ and having my life hidden in him.

      There certainly is room for personal conviction in some of these matters, but never room to impose them on others for righteousness sake or against their measure of faith.

      Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

      Collosions 1:6 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

  2. Al Nelson says:

    “These authoritarian systems and men seek to make themselves substitutes for Jesus Christ. Accept no substitute for Christ.”

    Amen Jim. It is written in the book of Revelation that our Lord said

    1.Revelation 2:6
    But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

    2.Revelation 2:15
    Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

    16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth. (Rev. 2:16)

    The word Nicolaitan means “to conquer the people” or
    Strongs G3531
    Not that I am a teacher of Greek. But like anybody I can study what others have studied.
    Blessings in Christ brother!

  3. Scarlett says:

    So, we may even go so far as to say the Nicolaitan churches themselves are cultish? I think you made that clear in your title, Brother Jim.

    Clearly Jesus was very adamant about the fact that he hated their doctrines and deeds, This after all, is what the organized church system is based on, and has been for nearly the last 2,000 years,

    What does it amount to? Doctrines and deeds, yes, however, not only doctrines and deeds, but control through subtle manipulation, rewiring the believer’s thought patterns over time to conform to the views and beliefs of the leadership, so there will be conformity in the general “group think”, as shown in the article you linked to and her experience.

    The Nicolaitan leadership may consist of one powerful and persuasive individual, or more than one, (or finally by an entire group being infected with their leaven), but in any case there will be the tell tale signs of control, in some fashion being exercised over the individuality of those who sit under them.

    Neither do the Nicolaitans necessarily have to operate inside the organized church system. Obviously, as you’ve titled your post, these Nicolaitan manipulators can just as easily set up camp in a home church setting, a store front, or on online, as I’ve seen in several cases. Beware of them.

    And make no mistake, I seriously doubt that very many are entirely exempt from the influence of others. Obviously we all are influenced by others in many ways simply by the culture we live in to one degree or another.

    Paul says an unusual thing in Galatians 6, which could also be applied to our day and circumstances; not having to do with circumcision, or persecution, but the need for these Nicolaitans to “compel” or “constrain” others to follow or obey them so that they may “glory” in the fleshly show of those they’ve managed to manipulate into emulating and following their lead. These are control freaks.

    12Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.…

    So, what’s the good news?

    2 Corinthians :
    17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

    When we sense a red flag in our spirit, or the prompting of the Holy Spirit that something is not quite right, we need to pray and seek Jesus on the matter until we have a clear answer.

    Peace and grace be multiplied,


  4. James A. Lee says:

    Passover was not necessarily an ongoing ritual that provided atonement…it was a remembrance, just like “communion”. It was also a commandment to Israel to observe as they reminded their children and themselves “It is because of what the LORD did for me when I came out of Egypt.” (Exo 13:8). Matter of fact, is this not where the ideal of breaking bread comes from?

    Which verse is it that says – Take this cup, but don’t do it in remembrance of me, because its only a shadow.

    Oh no, I’m sorry. Jesus actually said to the disciples, at the Passover sedar, that they should – “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

    If Jesus is God – God instituted the Passover to Israel – Jesus becomes the true Passover lamb and gives very similar Passover instructions – God is Jesus repeating himself. Doesn’t seem like a negotiable issue to me. What Christian do you know that does not celebrate the Lords Table is some fashion or another? Therefore, is it not recognition that this is a feast to be observed?

    I don’t care what anti-institutional Christians, Messianic Jews, or Torah talkers say – Jesus was a Jew who did Jewish Things in an Israeli context. He was also an Israeli (and still is) King who came to claim the throne of David as the Messiah, thus fulfilling prophecy.

    It just makes sense that Jesus would institute and celebrate feasts that honored God – After all, he said he came to do the will of his father? The feasts are commandments that he kept?

    It has nothing to do with Nicolatians and earning salvation and EVERYTHING with honoring God – like Jesus…who we are called to be like.

    What I am trying to emphasize is the importance of emulating our Lord. There was just cause for him being anxious to take the Passover WITH the disciples (Lk 22:15). Him being the Passover lamb (1 Cor. 5:7) we don’t need to slaughter a lamb in our Passover observance. But we do need to follow his instructions, along with Paul (1 Cor 11:26-29) to honor His Passover of OUR sins…that same God that passed over Israel.

    Thats just the Passover.

    What do you know of the feast of Trumpets?

    • James A. Lee says:

      Oh yeah. One more doozy…one I find hard to ignore or reason away – “1 Cor 5:8 – Let us celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.”

      Which feast references bread and passover lambs again? 🙂

    • fleebabylon says:

      “What Christian do you know that does not celebrate the Lords Table is some fashion or another? Therefore, is it not recognition that this is a feast to be observed?”

      Fair enough, I misunderstood you. You should distinguish between following a shadow/fore-type verses the new and living way we have in Christ. I would say that believers should be gathering to break bread and take the Lords supper to support what you have shared.

      “What do you know of the feast of Trumpets?”

      Unless you have a spiritual application, I would say “…which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.” [Collosians 2:16].

  5. James A. Lee says:

    Bro – you can’t be anti everything all the time. That’s the Bible…talking about PASSOVER …not a churchish ritual…

    • fleebabylon says:

      I’m not anti-everything, I am pro-Christ. I do not celebrate “holy days”, even the types and foreshadows given to Isreal. Every day of the christian life is holy onto the Lord. These are weak and beggarly things that Jesus fulfilled, he is the sustenance, they are fleeting shadows.

      See Galatians chapter 4

  6. fleebabylon says:

    Paul’s serious warning to the church

    Galatians 4

    But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

    Brethren, I urge you to become like me, for I became like you. You have not injured me at all. You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me. Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

    They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them. But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you. My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you, I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you.

    Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

    • James A. Lee says:

      Here’s the thing. I emphasized in all the responses I left that feast keeping is not an issue of salvation – nor is it the precipitating factor to salvation. You place a heavy emphasis on the idea that one is suggesting feast keeping as a contributing factor to one’s salvation (such as what Paul is addressing in Galatians, a poor proof text for this conversation as I am not or suggesting Judaizer theology, nor yoking anyone with Law.)

      Just as you are not saved because you obey the Ten Commandments – what benefit do you receive for not lusting, murdering, stealing, or bowing to false idols after you have been redeemed? Does it no longer have benefit to you because you have been redeemed – or is it full of new and wonderful meaning to obey those commands now that Christ has given you the spirit to do it correctly?

      • fleebabylon says:

        “or is it full of new and wonderful meaning to obey those commands now that Christ has given you the spirit to do it correctly?”

        Yes! A new and living way, not types and foreshadows. I agree 100% in that context.

        • James A. Lee says:

          Jim, for one second – what if the issue of Galatians is an issue of both Law and Grace (which it seems) but the days and feasts in question in Chapter 4 are related to the Roman Imperial Cult. Again, it is Gentiles being addressed right? But Paul is not emphasizing Torah observance as the answer. What if there is a third option?

          • fleebabylon says:

            “days and feasts in question in Chapter 4 are related to the Roman Imperial Cult”

            The entire chapter and language before and after the sentence on days,seasons is in regard to bondage to the law. The answer is Jesus, the weaker our faith and relationship with him, and the more we listen to reprobate writers, the more we will be pulled in that direction.

  7. Brother James, are you appealing to the law of sin and death and the power of the Old Testament covenant [and its practices] to achieve what it is was NEVER DESIGNED TO DO–to make a man righteous before God?

    “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. FOR WHAT THE LAW COULD NOT DO, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us,” (Romans 8:2).

    THE WILL OF GOD is that all saints are bound TO CHRIST ALONE through faith in His atoning work.

    By the way, the moral standard of the New Testament is actually higher and greater than that of the Old Testament: so there is no need to worry that we are not being righteous by leaving the ceremonial practices associated with Old Covenant behind (Matthew 5:28; 1 John 3:15).

    Also notice, that you are arguing for following practices associated with SIN AND DEATH [for this was the law that authored these practices].

    Is this wise?

    The New Covenant does away with all of the ceremonial practices of the Old Testament. [Or are you going to pick and choose from them, brother James? Say, let’s keep the Old Levitical priesthood and temple system, but do away with commands concerning women’s menstrual period and men’s circumcision?]

    Here’s my perspective on your reasoning, brother James: “Well, Christ came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it (). Following His example, should we not also follow all 613 Old Testament commands? Isn’t this what we would do, if we REALLY loved Christ?”

    Oh, wait, that’s manipulation, isn’t it?

    Worse, it’s a wrong-minded application of the scriptures–to appeal to the law to do what only Christ can do and has done–as if we are not satisfied with Christ.

    However, you are correct in your basic thesis, James: we ARE called to fulfill the whole weight of the law of sin and death [through faith in Christ] (Galatians 5).

    Here’s what a faith-filled life looks like: “For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,” (Galatians 5:14).

    Pointedly, God is looking for fruit, James, not the feast of tabernacles; it is on this basis that our faith will be tried.

    Frankly, it annoys me to see a brother come onto a blog, claim to not be appealing to ceremonial law for salvific purposes [had to look up ‘salvific’], but then try to yoke us with following Old Covenant practices out of a sense of guilt and obligation.

    I can faithfully practice every feast and ceremony of the Old Testament and still not please God because I am supposed to LOVE you, brother: to be gentle, long-suffering, and humble.

    I am probably falling short here, brother: however, at least my faith is in the right place [the blood of Jesus].

    Brother James, does it make you feel more righteous to practice the Old Testament feasts?

    If so, you may want to ask God to examine your heart and reveal to you whether or not your faith for salvation AND righteous, Spirit-led living is truly in His atoning work alone.

    Are you satisfied with Christ?

    “But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith,” (Galatians 3:24-25).

    My question to you is this: “Why do you want to bring God’s saints back under the bondage of sin and death?”

    Brother James, we can find Christ’s commands to partake of the Lord’s supper and baptize new believers in His name. Where are the commands to follow the Old Testament law [practices]?

    My recommendation is that you study the book of Romans in depth [meditate upon it]: it clearly teaches concerning the nature of the two covenants and what is pleasing to God.

    If you want to discuss this topic further, I suggest we connect online [google +, for example]: it will be a lot easier for us to perceive one another’s real faith in Christ, which will promote an edifying conversation.



    • James A. Lee says:


      Thanks for your response, at length. I am eager to engage your statements, but as the tendency of this thread is demonstrating, I am forced to ask a couple questions:

      1. Did you read what I wrote or are you emotionally responding?

      2. Have you considered the fact that Jesus and Paul clearly instruct disciples to carry out a form of the Passover meal? Is Paul not addressing Gentiles in Corinth when he tells them to keep feasts and references leaven and bread and a Paschal Lamb?

      3. Did you also read the part that I do not, nor intend to yoke others to ceremonial practices for the purpose of salvation? I don’t even observe Passover, but might start because the Scripture tells me something different than what Protestant Christianity has practiced for 1500 years.

      4. In all of your vitriol, what love and commandments have you upheld in your response to what I originally stated?

      5. Lastly, what is it exactly that you do today that is of much more sacrifice and of LOVE toward your brother/neighbor? In the same breath you claim to be on the higher road, you justify your failure to be long suffering with at least having your faith in the right place?

      Poor Jews…having feasts with one another, honoring God, and completing the narrative of salvation by trusting Jesus as their Paschal lamb. Blasted Jews. Shame on them for emulating a Jewish Messiah. Christ was not an English Monarch, he was one of those blasted Jews.

  8. fleebabylon says:

    “Christ was not an English Monarch, he was one of those blasted Jews.”

    Total straw man.

    Instead of focusing on going backwards and practicing works of old that profit little, we focus on Christ, crucifying our flesh (even religious flesh), and living an active and lively faith bound through love in the son of God.

    I have said this before and I’ll say it again. The less the reality of being crucified with Christ and closeness of our relationship with him, the more we will be open to filling the void with hebrew names, jewish traditions, days, feasts, etc.

    Such is a sign of backsliding from faith and not to be boasted of.

    In Christ,


  9. Brother James, we are to do everything by faith in Christ’s finished work alone, as it is WHOLLY SUFFICIENT to keep our hearts and strengthen us to fulfill every every good work.

    Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith for precisely this reason: EVERYTHING begins and ends with His work on the cross.

    James told us that the Old Testament law can save us if we keep it PERFECTLY [are without sin]. Otherwise, it’s only power is to condemn us: “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all,” (James 2:10).

    ONLY Christ’s work on the cross appeased the Father’s wrath.

    ONLY Christ’s atoning work enabled us to receive the Holy Comforter.

    How do we receive eternal life and gain power to do the works of God?

    Faith in the cross has always been God’s prescription for holy living:

    “For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God,” (Hebrews 7:19).

    Appealing to the Old Testament feasts [as one example] does NOTHING to makes us more acceptable to God or to please Him:

    “For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect,” (Hebrews 10:1).

    If your interest is in pleasing God and being perfected in your walk, trust the work of the Savior.

    We are to look back at the Old Testament with New Testament insight and understanding, as it has a spiritual application to our current walk: not that we are to follow its practices, but rather, that we are to learn from its examples.

    Notice, the context of 1 Corinthians 5 is an issue of sexual sin within the assembly, and Paul’s concern is that, not addressed, this leaven will corrupt the practice and faith of the entire assembly.

    He clearly teaches that Christ is our passover!

    This is of the same Spirit in which we learn that our entire lives are to be sanctified to God, as a sabbath lifestyle.

    This is the deeper meaning and spiritual walk associated with the New Testament birth.

    Our old man is the leaven that we must purge by faith in Christ [our Passover power] on a daily basis.

    This conversation reminds me of Acts 15: “But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

    Here is the final outcome of the ensuing discussions:

    “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment … For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well,” (Acts 15:24-29).



  10. Almost didn’t write this, as I have no fleshly desire to try to change your mind, James. However, I felt it might help …

    Does not our daily righteousness stem and flow from the same source as our eternal righteousness?

    If Christ can save, can He not also sanctify?

    If the law of sin and death was not good for salvation, how could it be good for daily sanctification?

    Rather, consider the example of the Jewish people who have been afforded all the natural benefits of being raised up by God as a holy nation [from which He drew forth the righteous branch of David, which is Christ]:

    “Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen,” (Romans 9:4-5).

    Yet, they stumbled in unbelief because they would not receive the love of the truth:

    “What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling stone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed,” (Romans 9:30-33).

    Yet, this should not concern us, as it was always God’s plan:

    “It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated,” (Romans 9:12-13).

    It is not our natural heritage that will distinguish us in the end–for God saves both Jews and gentiles, according to His will:

    “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? … For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved,” (Romans 9:22-24; 10:12-13).

    At this present time, there is a remnant of the Jewish people [who are made so by faith in Christ]:

    “Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work,” (Romans 11:5-6).

    Notice, their natural linage and cultural traditions [including Old Testament practices] do nothing to save them and have no power to sanctify them [for something better has come].

    Yet, we are thankful for the Jewish people, as they are the means by which we received Christ. Notice, we are not to think ourselves better than they [not to boast against them]:

    “For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee,” (Romans 11:16-18).

    Moreover, a day is coming when all of Israel will turn to faith in Christ, when they shall look upon me whom they have pierced and mourn [Zechariah 12:10]:

    “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins,” (Romans 11:26-27).

    We have already received that which most of the Jewish people attain to:

    “Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed,” (Romans 9:7-8).

    It all comes down to this, James: “ For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth,” (Romans 10:4).
    This is the law we live under and honor without fearing the need to follow Old Testament traditions:

    “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death,” (Romans 8:1-2).

    Most importantly, there is no difference between the believing Jew and gentile in this day for God has destroyed the law of commandments contained in ordinances [of the Old Testament] by the power of the cross:

    “Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit,” (Ephesians 2:11-22).

    If we want to be built up as a spiritual house in the Lord Jesus, we must do it by faith in the cross.

    • James A. Lee says:

      Two things. In your first comment, you cited Acts and the Jerusalem council as if what I was presenting was a yoke of the Law on other believers – I still don’t think you read what I wrote – and like so many internet christians – you cannot even have a discussion concerning the genuine examples of the Messiah who came in the flesh and observed these very things to Honor God – not to establish righteousness or salvation. In the same breath you say it is okay for others to esteem days over another – you beat him down for esteeming what is a 2000 year old observance in Christianity (The Passover Sedar) – google that eh?

      Secondly the original comment was an attempt to discuss what one observes in the scriptures. Instead the responses are not “what makes you think this?” They are – you’re wrong wrong wrong!!! Here is why why why why!!! Forbid someone opening their bible and genuinely meting out what the word says like a Berean. The very thing anti-institutional Christians despise about the institution is in the Spirit of what they do to each other. The Bible – is the arbiter of truth – and iron only sharpens iron if we are open minded with each other. Boy I wish I had it all figured out like some people do – I’d be one heckuva Christian…

      Instead we have google christians running around with it all figured out – claiming love for their brethren but beating them down like the very Pharisees they despise.

      Did you even know that in citing the Jerusalem council you cite Torah (Lev 17:4)? The same Torah is then said to be delivered to the Gentiles – for observance! And that council still passed on LAW to those believers as part of OBEDIENCE to the faith…

      Going back to the original statement – Jesus Christ observed passover, and instructed his followers to observe it to, and so did Paul, and so we do to this day – but with Christ as our Lamb. Maybe you’ll read that?

      Peace be with you,

      James A. Lee


      -Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him (Jesus), that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom 6:6)

  11. fleebabylon says:

    Brothers, I think this conversation would be best moved to a private setting. Maybe video chat would be better to discuss and clear things up?

    In Christ-


    • James A. Lee says:

      Yeah, that sounds wise. Two people beating me over the head.

      Will there be bibles involved?

      And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews. When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
      (Act 18:19-21)

      Act 21:20-26 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: (21) And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. (22) What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. (23) Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; (24) Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. (25) As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. (26) Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

  12. James, I apologize for not being more gracious in my opening remarks: I could have taken the time to do so, and that was certainly an error on my part. Please forgive me, brother.

    A couple thoughts that apply to everyone about discussions:

    If we make a public comment, we invite public responses. The fact that someone is not agreeing with us is not necessarily evidence of any of the following: that we are not having a discussion; that they are not reading their bibles or responding in the Spirit; that they have not carefully considered our words; that they are brow-beating us.

    James, I actually think the discussion is edifying. Moreover, I actually do believe that you love God and are sincerely attempting to follow Him the best you know how.

    I don’t think I am better than you, brother; if anything, you’re probably a better example in most things than me.

    I really am sorry that I didn’t express this earlier to you, brother.

    Please allow me an opportunity to redeem this conversation through a google video conference with you and brother Jim sometime: I am sure we would all be encouraged by that!

    Peace and grace,


  13. Leanne O says:

    Hi Jim, I really enjoyed this blog and yes youre right. I have noticed that there is a movement of people who demand political correctness of names and demand feasts…I think these people do it to identify with Jesus, and it somehow makes them feel holier than most, but we are definitely not under the law especially not the law of these Yewish wannabees. I call them the cult of Yah.
    I also read some other blogs on another site that you made comments about how home groups always end up being like churches.
    I agree. We had a fellowship in New Zealand called the new wine skin and we were determined not to let it get that way…We had it on a Friday night to break the Sunday tradition. God showed up powerfully as we only let the holy spirit lead us, It was glorious until there came in a mixture of people from the old. They complained because everything was spontaneous, and we had spontaneous propheti music, these people wanted words on a screen…Then they started telling us their problems and wanted us to fix them, we found a few shepherds amoungst us and asked if they could use their gifts to help these guys….We got phone calls daily asking us for money for poor families…We didnt have any money because we didn’t believe in tithing…in the end it wore us down because they demanded us to be the pastors….we ended up leaving the fellowship and it fizzled out the next few weeks because we weren’t there….
    I want totell you this though Jim, there will be a time where God calls us all together in one accord. We need to get together and gather on the mountain and be led wholly by him….this will be the tabernacle of david not made with hands….We need to do this because from us gathering, the anointing from the Christ in us will be strong like never before, and this will cause an awakening like the world has never seen…Why the wilderness? its the place where we get purged of flesh and religion so we can be trusted to be the foundations of the next New wineskins. Apostles and Prophets with Christ being head.

    Bless you Jim

  14. Interesting testimony, Leanne O … thanks for sharing it.

    I think it is interesting because ‘church’ has taught people that assembling is about man, not God. Concerning those who wanted to follow those things taught and learned in organized religion: This type of attitude undermines the work of the Lord to build what is pleasing TO HIM. It places man’s concerns at the center of the assembly, instead of God’s concerns. It wears out the saints who are seeking HIM, and it is an unsustainable way to assemble, as the Holy Spirit will not bless it.

    P.S. I thought it was particularly interesting about how the ‘churchified’ are always wanting their ‘felt needs’ and ‘problems’ to be ministered to. It is important to minister to one another, as the Lord leads us by His Spirit. However, it is true that many of the problems that people in the churches are currently enduring are symptoms of not focusing upon the Lord.



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